Question 9

QUESTIONER: ONE LAST QUESTION, IF YOU PERMIT. HOW IS IT THAT KRISHNA, IN ALL HIS PAST LIVES, HAS NEVER BEEN IGNORANT AND IMPERFECT?

Not only Krishna, even Mahavira had never been ignorant and imperfect in any of his past lives. It is another thing that Mahavira came to know of it only in his last life. Krishna had always known it; he knew it eternally. Even you are not ignorant and imperfect. Each one of us is all-knowing and each one of us is whole -- just we are not aware of it. It is all a matter of remembering, of being aware that we are it. The difference lies in awareness, not in being.

For example, the sun is high up in the sky, but all of us here go into deep sleep. The sun will be very much there, but then we will not be aware of it. Then one of us wakes up and knows that the sun is shining on him. The sun will be shedding light equally on all those who remain asleep, but they will not be aware of it. And when they awaken will they be right in saying the sun rose with their awakening? No, what would be right is for them to say the sun was already there, but they woke up to it later. No one -- neither Mahavira, nor Krishna nor you -- is without light and knowledge. Each one of us is whole as he is. It is all a matter of remembering it, waking up to it.

Throughout his existence, in all of his lives, Krishna has been aware that he is whole. So the question of his striving for it does not arise. At a particular level of his existence, say in his last life, Mahavira comes to know through efforts and disciplines, that he is not ignorant and imperfect, but knowing and whole. And when he is awakened he also comes to know that this has always been the case, he has always been aware and whole. And what difference does it make if someone comes to know of it a few lives earlier or later?

But it makes a difference for those of us who live in time; we are always concerned about time -- who comes first and who comes last. But in eternity no one is the first and no one is the last. In existence, time is without beginning and without end. So the question of one's awakening to reality sooner or later does not arise. This question has relevance only for those of us who believe time begins and ends. If time has no beginning, then what does it matter if someone awakens two days before me? If time is without end, then what does it matter if I attain to reality two days after someone else?

The measurement of time in seconds, days and years is imaginary; man has invented it. It is conceptual, but not a fact. It is utilitarian, but not real. The truth is that time itself is a concept, not a reality. Reality is eternal and immeasurable. And enlightenment, awakening, or whatever you call it happens beyond time, in timelessness.

It will seem strange to you when I say that the moment of Mahavira's attainment is the same as the moment of Krishna's. You will say it is incredible, yet it is a fact. But to understand it we will have to go more deeply into the question of time.

Let us understand it in this way. On a piece of paper I draw a circle with a center. Then I draw a number of lines running from the circumference to the center. Right at the circumference there is a distance, a gap between any two lines, but this gap goes on shrinking as the lines proceed towards the center. And as they reach the center this gap disappears altogether. While there is clearly a gap at the circumference, there is none at the center.

It is the same with time. At the circumference of time there is a gap between Mahavira and Krishna, between Krishna and me, between me and you, but there is no gap whatsoever when we all arrive at the center. All distance disappears at the center. But since we all live on time's circumference, and we have no knowledge of its center, we find it difficult to understand that Mahavira and Krishna arrive there together and at the same time.

I will explain it in yet another way. Think of a bullock-cart on the move; its wheel revolves but the axle remains unmoving. The truth is that the wheel moves with the support of the axle; without the axle the wheel cannot move. So a moving wheel is dependent on an unmoving axle. Even when the wheel has revolved a million times, the axle will be stationary. The wonder is that the wheel and axle are joined together, and yet one moves and the other is unmoving. Remove the axle and the wheel will become useless. And the two together make for the cart and its movement. Is it not strange? And how is it possible? It is possible because while the wheel is the circumference, the axle is the hub, the center.

In the same way time, or history forms the circumference while truth, or divinity forms the center.