Question 3

QUESTIONER: IT IS TRUE THAT THE INNER MOST SPIRIT OF MEN LIKE KRISHNA AND CHRIST IS ETERNAL, BUT THEIR TEMPORAL BODIES ALSO COME AND GO, AND WE HERE ARE INTERESTED IN THE TIME-SEQUENCE OF THEIR TEMPORAL BODIES. GROSS EVENTS LIKE KRISHNA-LEELA AND MAHABHARAT ARE WORTH KNOWING AND WE WANT TO BE ENLIGHTENED ABOUT THEM.

Those who attach importance to the gross body also attach importance to gross events. But it has no importance for those who know the body to be just a shadow. Krishna does not accept that he is his body that is visible to the eyes. Nor does Jesus accept it as himself. They deny they are bodies, so any account of their bodies will not comprise an account of them.

No statues of Buddha were made for a full five hundred years after his death, because Buddha had forbidden his disciples to do so. He had clearly said no statues of his physical body should be made. So his followers had no way to create idols of Buddha. For five hundred years they had to reconcile themselves with the bare picture of the bodhi tree under which their Bhagwan had attained to enlightenment. They did not even show Buddha sitting under the tree; just the empty space occupied by him was shown.

The physical body is nothing more than a shadow, so it is not necessary to keep its record. Those who kept such records did so because they had no idea of the subtle, of the unseen. The gross, the physical, the outer becomes meaningless for those who know the subtle, the inner, the soul. Do you keep any record of your dreams? Do you remember when you dreamed and what you dreamed about? You dream every day and forget them. Why? -- because you know they are dreams.

The life of Krishna that is apparent to us, is nothing more than a shadow, a dream. Do we have a record of the dreams Jesus had? No, we don't. Maybe a day will come when people will ask for an account of Krishna's dreams. They will say if he ever happened to be on this earth, he must have dreamed, and if he did not, then the fact of his existence will be in doubt. If it happens in some future time that dreams become important to some community and they keep a record of their dreams, then those who have no such records will not be believed to have existed at all.

What we know as our gross life is nothing more than a dream in the eyes of Krishna, Christ and Mahavira. And if people living with them also understand it in the same way, then there is no need whatsoever to keep a record of such dreams. And it is for this reason we don't have a biography of Krishna. This absence of a biography speaks for itself: it says his time rightly understood Krishna.

I was saying that for five hundred years no statue, no picture of Buddha was made. If someone wanted to paint his picture, he painted a picture of the bodhi tree with Buddha's place under it left empty. Buddha was truly an empty space. His statues and pictures came into being after five hundred years, because by then all those people who had understood rightly that Buddha's gross life was nothing more than a dream had disappeared from the earth. And the people who came after them thought it necessary to create a biography of Buddha, detailing when he was born, when he died, what he did, what he looked like and how he spoke. These records of Buddha were created much later.

Those who knew did not keep a record, ignorant admirers of Buddha did it. Such data are the products of ignorant minds.

Moreover, what difference would it make if Krishna had not happened? It would make no difference. What difference would it make in your life if he had really existed? None. But you will say it would really make a difference for you if he had not happened. But I say it would make no difference what soever. Whether Krishna existed or not is not the question. The real question is whether the innermost being, the spirit and soul that Krishna symbolizes, is possible or not possible. What we are really concerned with is whether a person like Krishna is possible or not. It is not important if Krishna actually happened or did not happen. What is significant is that a man like him is possible. In case it is possible, then it does not matter if Krishna did not actually happen. And if it is settled that a man like him is not possible, then it won't have any meaning if he, in fact, had happened.

An enlightened person is not concerned with the question of Krishna's being historical or other wise. If someone comes and tells me he is not an historical figure, I will say, "Then take it to be so; there's no harm in accepting this." It is an irrelevant question. What is relevant and significant is the inquiry whether a Krishna is possible or not possible, because if you come to realize he is possible your life will be transformed.

On the other hand, if you are a skeptic you will not believe it even if, some day, all records of the life of Krishna, written on ancient stones, are made available to you. In spite of these records you will say such a man is not possible, that you don't believe them.

I say such a man is possible. And because such a man is possible, I say that Krishna happened, that he can happen and that he is there. But it is his innermost being, his spirit, his soul that is supremely important.

We see only the body; we don't see the inner, that which lives inside the body. Hence we become deeply involved with the outer, with the body. Buddha is dying, and somebody asks him where he will be after his death. Buddha says, "I will be nowhere, because I have never been anywhere. I am not what you see me to be, I am what I see me to be." So the outer life is nothing more than a myth, a drama; it has no significance. And saying loudly and effectively that the outer has no significance whatsoever, we refused to write its history. And we are not going to write such a history in the future either.

But later on, this country's mind became weak and afraid. It became afraid that in contrast with Christ, who seems to be an historical figure, Krishna looked legendary and mythical. While there is pretty good evidence in support of Christ's being an historical figure, there is none in the case of Krishna. So this country has been demoralized. And our minds have now been influenced by the same considerations which guided the followers of Christ to preserve his history so we are raising such meaningless questions. It would be better if someday we again gathered courage to be able to tell the Christians it was very unfortunate that when a man like Christ happened among them, they busied themselves with collecting and recording the times of his birth and death. It was a sheer waste of time. It was not necessary to preserve such insignificant information about such a significant person.

Therefore I tell you not to be concerned about such small matters. This concern only shows the way your mind works: it shows that you give value to the physical body, to its birth and death, to its external incidents. But the body is just the periphery of life, the external. What is really significant is that which lies at its center -- alone, untouched, free of all associations and attachments. The witnessing soul at the center is what is really, really significant.

When, at the moment of your death, you look back on your life you will see it is no different from dreams. If, even today, you look back on the life you have lived, you will wonder whether it was real or the stuff of dreams. How will you know if you have really lived it or just dreamed about it?

Chuang Tzu has made a profound joke about life as we know it. One fine morning he left his bed and called his disciples to him, saying he was faced with an intricate problem and wanted them to help solve it. All his monastery gathered round him and they were puzzled that their Master, who always helped solve problems for them, was now asking them to do the same for him. They had never thought Chuang Tzu could have a problem of his own. So they said, "How come you have a problem? We always thought you had gone beyond all life's problems and difficulties."

Chuang Tzu said, "The problem is such that it can well be called a problem of the beyond. Last night I dreamed I am a butterfly sipping at flowers in the garden."

The disciples said, "What is the problem in this dreamj Everybody dreams about something or the other.

Chuang Tzu said, "The problem does not end with the dream. When I woke up this morning I found that I am again Chuang Tzu. Now the question is, is the butterfly now dreaming it has become Chuang Tzu? If a man can dream he is a butterfly, there should be no difficulty in a butterfly dreaming it is a man. Now I want to know the reality, whether I dreamed last night or the butterfly is dreaming right now!"

Chuang Tzu's disciples said, "It is beyond our capacity to answer you. You have put us in a difficult situation. Up to now we have been certain that what we see in sleep is a dream and what we see while awake is reality. But now you have confused us totally."

Then Chuang Tzu said, "Don't you see that when you are dreaming in the night you forget all about what you have seen in the day, as you forget the dreams of the night when you go through the chores of the day And it is interesting to note that while you can remember something of your dreams during your waking hours, you cannot, while dreaming, remember anything of what you see or do in the daytime. If memory is the decisive factor, then the dreams of the night should be more real than the dreams of the day. If a man sleeps, and sleeps everlastingly, how can he ever know what he is dreaming is not real? Every dream appears to be so real while you are dreaming -- not one dream appears to be unreal in a dream."